DRAFT -- DRAFT -- DRAFT
San Francisco Giants All-Time Team
This franchise started out as the New York Gothams in 1883, becoming the Giants in
1885. And of course they moved out west to San Francisco in 1958. In New York
they won 17 pennants and 5 World Series (plus two championships from the
1800s). Since the move they have won 3 pennants and have made five additional
playoff appearances, but not have won it all.
As you would expect, their all-time roster is loaded with stars. But as you'll
see, the quality isn't spread evenly over each position.
1st Base:
The two choices at 1B are pretty obvious,
but what isn't entirely clear is who should be the starter. Willie McCovey
(.274, .524 Slg, 469 HR, 1113 R, 1388 RBI, 1351 SO, 6 AS) played all of his
best years for the Giants, leaving for only three years to play for San Diego
and Oakland. Not the most durable of players (he only played 150+ games in a
season four times), he was a leading power hitter of his day, smashing 30+ HRs
(led the league three times) and 90+ RBIs seven times. Playing in only 52 games
in 1959, his 13 HRs and .354 BA were enough to take home top rookie honors. 1969 was
his career year, batting .320 with 45 HR, 126 RBI, and 121 BB to win the league
MVP award. His propensity to strike out decreased as he gained more experience,
and eventually he became patient enough to be amongst the league-leaders in
walks each year. He wasn't quick on the bases or in the field, but his lanky
6'4" frame made "Stretch" an adequate fielder at 1B.
Comparing McCovey to Bill Terry
(.341, .506 Slg, 1120 R, 1078 RBI, 373 D, 3 AS) is hard, because while the
former played his best years during the pitching dominated 60s, the latter
benefitted from hitting during the offensive late-20s and early-30s. Terry
played his entire career with the Giants, and has the team's highest career
batting average. He never won an MVP award, but
he was amongst the top-10 in voting six times. And that doesn't include 1930,
when no MVP award was given, a year that saw Terry lead the league with a .401
mark. With such high competition in that era, Terry rarely led the league in
any offensive categories, but he was regularly amongst the leaders in BA, OBP,
Hits, D, T, Runs, RBIs, and more. He had seven seasons with 100+ runs, six with
100+ RBIs, and nine with 30+ doubles. He too wasn't a great baserunner, but he
was a pretty good fielder and easily makes this team as the backup.
There were a few other candidates to consider, including most
notably old-timer Roger Connor (.319, .402 OBP, 946 R). Connor was one of
the major power hitters of his times, regularly hitting double-digit HRs and
triples in the same season during the 1880s and early 1890s. He paced the NL in
batting in 1885 with a .371 mark, and was regularly amongst the league leaders
in just about every offensive category.
Another candidate is Will Clark (.299, .499 Slg, 5 AS, 1 GG),
who played his first eight seasons in San Francisco.
His best year was 1989, when he led the league in runs (104) and was
runner-up in BA (.333) and hits (196), earning him second place in the MVP
balloting behind teammate Kevin Mitchell.
During the early 1920s while Ruth was redefining the game,
George Kelley (.301) twice led the NL in RBIs and once in HRs. He was a good RBI man
(with six consecutive 90+ RBI seasons) and was a good fielder as well.
Johnny Mize (.299, .549 Slg, 157 HR, 5 AS) had two
good seasons and two great seasons for the Giants, including his impressive
1947 numbers: .302, 51 HR, 138 RBI, 137 runs. Whitey Lockman (.281,
1 AS), Fred Merkle (.272, 212 SB), and J.T. Snow (.273, 4 GG) did not
achieve nearly enough to get more than a cursory glance. And finally, Orlando Cepeda, who admittedly
played more time at 1B than in the OF for the Giants, will need to be considered
at the latter position since there is obviously no room here.
2nd Base:
Put bluntly, 2B has rarely been a strong
position for the Giants. The starter will be Larry Doyle (.292, 906 R, 291 SB), a dead-ball era player who played most of his career for the Giants. He won the batting
title in 1915 with a rather mediocre .320 average. His 1912 season earned him
the MVP award (The Chalmers Award), his .330 average,
36 SBs, and 10 HRs edging out Honus Wagner. He had five
consecutive 30+ SB seasons, but given when he
played that isn't that impressive. His statistics indicate he wasn't a
particularly gifted fielder, nor did he do well in most of his three
consecutive years in the World Series (1911-13). Nonetheless, he is the best
available so he gets the starting spot.
The backup, Jeff Kent (.297,
.535 Slg, 175 HR, 3 AS), was on pace to become the starter after just another
one or two solid seasons, but then left via free agency after the 2002 season. You could make
a case for him over Doyle as the starter, based on his HR and RBI numbers: his
six seasons in San Fran provided between 22 and 37 HRs each, and over 100 RBIs
every year. His best year was in 2000, when his 33 HR, 114 R, 125 RBI, and .334
BA were enough to capture the NL MVP award (beating teammate Barry Bonds). He
provided solid production, especially for a 2B, but only for six seasons.
Another Giants star 2B was Frankie Frisch, but as he
split time at 3B, we'll consider him again in a moment. Robbie Thompson (.257, 2 AS, 1 GG) played his entire 11-year career for the Giants. He had
moderate power for a 2B (double digit HRs in six seasons) and was a good
fielder. But he was fragile, playing the most games (149) in his rookie season,
and ending his career early due to injury as well. Tito Fuentes (.262) was a
late-60s and early-70s middle infielder for the Giants, but his accomplishments
don't come close to getting him on this roster.
3rd Base:
Third base is a bit stronger, thankfully. Matt Williams (.264,
247 HR, 4 AS, 3 GG) is the pretty clear starter, although it took him a while to find his major-league swing: in his first three partial seasons he batted .188, .205, and .202. In 1990 he led the league in RBIs with 122, having the first of four 30+ HR seasons for the Giants. His 43 in the
strike-shortened 1994 season led the league, and the talk was of Williams, Griffey Jr., and
others making a run at Maris's HR record. He was the runner-up in the MVP
balloting that season, and took home his third gold glove for the
Giants.
There are numerous candidates for
the backup 3B, but this is where I will bring Frankie Frisch (.321,
224 SB) back into the discussion. He played 622 games at 2B, but also played
347 at 3B, enough to reasonably qualify him at both positions. Frisch had seven
solid seasons in New York before joining the Cardinals (in a trade for Rogers
Hornsby after the 1926 season). He had 20+ steals each full-year as a Giant, and batted over .300 in
all but one. He scored 100+ runs in four consecutive years, and provided solid
defense at both positions. He was a key player for the pennant winning Giants
from 1921-24, and performed very well in all four World Series (of which they
won the first two). It is hard to keep him off this team, so he gets the backup
3B spot.
Choosing Frisch isn't easy though,
as numerous others had to be considered. Jim Davenport (.258, 1 AS, 1 GG)
and Art Devlin (.268, 266 SB) have played in more games at 3B for the Giants
than anyone else. Davenport played during the 1960s and was a good fielder, but
not much of a hitter. Devlin played for New York from 1904-11, and was a good
baserunner, but also not a great hitter.
Freddie Lindstrom (.318) had several fine
offensive seasons for the Giants in the late 20s and early 30s, including his
1928 season of .358 BA, 231 H, 39 D, 14 HR, and 107 RBI, and his 1930 season of
.379 BA, 231 H, 39 D, 22 HR, 127 R, and 106 RBI. Darrell Evans (.255, .358
OBP, 1 AS) also had seven full seasons in a Giants uniform during the 70s and
80s (though not his best). He hit 20+ homers three times and was patient at the
plate. He played about a third of his games at 1B, but clearly had no shot of
making this roster at that position. Jim Ray Hart (.282, 1 AS)
provided even more power, hitting 20+ HR each year from 1964-68,
but only had five full seasons and was a poor
gloveman. Hank Thompson (.267) played for the Giants about as long as Evans
and Hart, and like them displayed some power at the plate, with three seasons
of 20+ HRs. Clearly the All-Time Giants have a fair amount of depth at 3B.
Shortstop:
There are really only two strong
candidates for SS on this roster, the difficulty being who will start. Travis
Jackson (.291, 1 AS) played his entire career (1922-36) for the Giants, and
was elected to the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee in 1982 (one of their
more debateable selections in opinion). He had six .300+ seasons, and 20+ HRs and 100+
RBIs once each--which given the era he
played in is not very impressive. He wasn't very fast on the bases, but was a
good fielder (he played about 80 percent of his games at SS, the remainder at
3B). He did not hit well in four World Series: he managed only .149 with one
extra base hit in 67 at-bats. His longevity and consistency earn him the top
spot.
George Davis (.332, 354 SB) had clearly superior peak performances over Jackson.
His playing time was split even more heavily at 3B, playing
around 40 percent of his games there. He posted a .300+ average in all nine of
his full seasons as a Giant, and in five of those seasons managed both 90+ runs
and 90+ RBI. He also stole between 25 and 65 bases per season. You could
certainly make a case for him as the starter.
Art Fletcher (.275) played nearly as many
games at SS as Jackson, so he certainly deserved a look. He was apparently a
typical player of the 1910s: no power, moderate speed, and so on. The only
remarkable thing I could find was that he led the NL in being
hit-by-pitch fives times, and finished in at least the top-four in that
category every year from 1911-1920. Chris Speier (.248, 3 AS) played his
first six seasons in San Fran, as well as his last three, finally retiring in
1989. He had a little pop in his bat (double digit HRs four times), but does
not come close to making this roster.
John "Monte" Ward (.279, 332 SB) was an extremely
versatile 19th Century star, playing mostly SS but also seeing time
at OF, 2B, even as a pitcher (he had been a star pitcher earlier in his career
for Providence). He played nine seasons for New York, and was a good contact
hitter: he scored 100+ runs three times, had little extra-base power, and
rarely struck out. He was a good baserunner, managing 111 SBs in 1887 (his SB
totals from the first half of his career are unavailable, including three
seasons for New York). Alvin Dark (.292, 3 AS) was another quality Giants SS
(1950-56), hitting double digit HRs five consecutive seasons, and scoring 90+
runs four times. He went 17-41 (.415) in his two New York World Series (1951,
1954). He also managed the team from
1961-64, taking the pennant in 1962 with a 103-62 record. Lastly, recent SS
Rich Aurilia (.278, 1 AS) had a fine 2000 campaign (.324 BA, 37 HR, 114 R, 97 RBI) but his other
seasons were mediocre.
Catcher:
The history of Giants who have donned the tools of ignorance is not a
pretty site. None of those who have played the most often at C are really
qualified to make this roster,
so instead I will go with two more well-known players who played some of their
time in New York at other positions. Buck Ewing (.306) played more
than half his games as a catcher, but also played OF, 1B, 2B, and 3B. He batted
over .300 in 8 of his 9 full seasons in NY, though it should be noted that he played
in over 100 games in a season only twice (typical for catchers of that era). He
was a superb run scorer though, crossing the plate 643 times in 734 games. As
with many 19th century stars, he had triples power and stole a lot
of bases (though like Ward, the available statistics are incomplete).
Roger Bresnahan
(.293, .403 OBP) played six full seasons for New York in the early 1900s,
catching most of the time but also playing some OF. He was regularly amongst
the league leaders in OBP, and he ran quite well for a catcher too. He is most
famous for introducing shin guards to the game in 1908.
There have been around a dozen Giants who have caught
more games than Ewing and Bresnahan, but they are a pretty sorry lot. Wes
Westrum (.217, .356 OBP, 2 AS) caught the most (902 games), playing his
entire career for the Giants (1947-57). He twice belted 20+ HRs in a season,
but his batting average does not impress. Gus Mancuso (.270, 2 AS) helped the
Giants to three pennants, but doesn't have particularly impressive numbers.
Harry Danning (.285, 4 AS) played his entire career as a Giant (1933-42). He
had two double digit HR seasons, and three with a .300+ average.
Cheif Meyers (.301) caught for New York from
1909-15 and came in second in BA in 1912 (.358) while pacing the league with
a .441 OBP. Tom Haller (.248, 2 AS) caught for the Giants for much of the
1960s, producing six double-digit HR seasons and always batting around .250. Bob
Brenly (.250, 1 AS) had four 15+ HR seasons in the 1980s, posting a career year
in 1984 with 20 HR, 80 RBI, and a .291 BA.
Outfield:
Contrary to C, the Giants outfield is absolutely loaded.
We'll start with Willie Mays (.304, .564 Slg, 2011 R, 504 D, 646
HR, 1859 RBI, 336 SB, 18 AS, 12 GG), who played all but the last one and a half
of his seasons for the Giants. Often regarded as the greatest player of all
time, he was Rookie of the Year on 1951. He took home MVP honors in 1954 and
1965, and twelves times was in the top six in MVP balloting. He scored 100+
runs in 12 consecutive seasons, had 100+ RBIs 10 times, 30+ HRs 11 times, and
batted over .300 10 times. Plus he was a legendary centerfielder and led the
league in SBs four times.
Mays god-son Barry
Bonds (.315, .676 Slg, .479 OBP, 539 HR, 255 SB, 1432 R, 1317 RBI, 11 AS,
5 GG) is the second OF on this team. Keep in mind that while his best years have come as a
Giant, he played his first seven in Pittsburgh, so that is why Mays is the clear number
one here. Oh, plus the pitching-strong years that Mays played through compared witht he offensive explosion that Bonds was a part of... not to mention the steroid accusations that taint our
reflections on Barry's career. Having said that, Bonds has five MVP awards as a Giant, and of course set the single season HR record with
73 in 2001 and Walk record with 198 in 2002, only to surpass that in 2004 with 232. In San Fran he has had nine seasons of 100+ R and 100+ RBI. And he won two batting titles htting .370 in 2002 and .362 in 2004. Thought knee problems have slowed him recently, he did have six 25+ SB seasons when he first came to the bay. And ditto for his defense which has declined in recent years after taking home five gold gloves from 1993-98.
The third OF spot, belongs to Mel Ott (.304, .533 Slg, .414 OBP, 1859 R, 488 D, 511 HR,
1860 RBI, 12 AS), the Hall-of-Fame rightfielder who played his entire career
(1926-1947) for the Giants. He had nine seasons with 100+ R, nine with 100+ RBI,
eight with 30+ HR, ten with 100+ walks, and ten with a .300+ average. He took home
six HR crowns, though he never placed higher than third in the MVP voting. He
had far less success as a manager of the Giants, where he had a .467 winning
percentage over six and a half seasons. This starting trio is not only offensively powerful, but they can all play their natural positions (Mays in CF flanked by Bonds in LF and Ott in RF).
The backups are not nearly as impressive,
but they are no slouches either. Mike Tiernan (.311,
.392 OBP, 1313 R, 428 SB) was a 19th century-style slugger. He twice
led the league in HRs with 13 in 1890 and 16 in 1891. He had 100+ runs seven
times, with his best being 147 in only 122 games in 1889. He had 50+ steals
three times and was regularly amongst the league leaders in numerous other
categories.
Orlando Cepeda (.308, .535 Slg, 226 HR, 6 AS) also
clearly deserves a spot, as he played his first seven full years as a Giant
before moving on to St. Louis and numerous other clubs. His rookie campaign of
25 HR, 96 RBI, 15 SB, and a .312 average earned him Rookie of the Year honors. He had 100+ runs
three times, 100+ RBI three times, 30+ HR four times, and he never batted below
.297 in those seven seasons. His best year for San Fran was surely 1961,
when he belted 46 HR with 142 RBI, leading the league in both (and earning
him a distant second place finish in the MVP vote, behind Frank Robinson). He
played more games at 1B (872) than in the OF (231), but this is where I have a
roster spot for him.
The sixth spot is not an easy decision,
but after some consideration Bobby Bonds (.273, 186 HR, 263 SB, 1016 SO, 2 AS, 3
GG) emerged as the strongest selection. Like Cepeda, Bonds started his career
in San Fran, playing his first seven seasons there. After a mediocre
half-season as a rookie, he put together six consecutive 20+ HR seasons, and
had 40+ steals in five of them. Easily the best power/speed combination of his
day, he also had an infamous strikeout problem, posting six 100+ K seasons,
including two embarassing totals of 189 and 187 –- not a quality you want in a
leadoff man. Nonetheless, he scored 100+ runs five times (first or second in the
league each year) and was also an excellent fielder.
Bonds beats out Bobby Thompson (.277,
.484 Slg, 189 HR, 3 AS) for this spot, who played for the Giants from
1946-1953. Oddly, the only major category that Thompson led the league in was
triples, in 1952 (14). But he had six 20+ HR seasons, and four 100+ RBI
seasons. He played 176 games at 3B, but spent most his time in centerfield. If
you wanted two at each position, then you'd have to go with Thomson over either
Bonds or Tiernan who both played RF (with Cepeda in LF).
Another viable option
would be centerfielder George Van Haltren (.321, 973 R, 320 SB), a teammate
of Tiernan's for many years. A more one-dimensional hitter, Van Haltren was all
about scoring runs: as a Giant he had seven consecutive 100+ run seasons. He
also had two 100+ RBI years, his first two in New York, but never had more than
74 again. And like many of his era, he could run well (seven seasons of 30+
steals).
George Joseph Burns (.290, 334 SB) played for the
Giants from 1911-1925 (and is not to be confused with his contemporary in the
AL, George Henry Burns). He had five 100+ Run seasons, and another four with
80+, plus five seasons with 40+ SBs. Jo-Jo Moore (.298, 6 AS) played his
entire career (1930-41) as a Giant. He had three 100+ Run seasons, and
generally had good but not phenomenal offensive numbers relative to his era.
Similarly, Ross Youngs (.322, .399 OBP) played his entire career as a Giant
(1917-26). He also scored 100+ runs three times, but had a higher BA and OBP
than Moore. He likely would have had a truly fine career, but a kidney disorder
led to premature death at the age of 30. Don Mueller (.298 BA, 2 AS) played
most of his career as a Giant (1948-57), with his best year being 1954 when he
scored 90 runs, had 212 hits, and batted .342 (league runner-up). Jack Clark
(.277 BA, 163 HR, 2 AS) played the first half of his career in San Fran, and
managed five 20+ HR seasons from 1975-84. Chili Davis (.267 BA, 2 AS) also
started his career at the Bay (1981-87), but his biggest power seasons came
later. All of these fellows were considered for this roster, but none could
crack through.
Starting Pitching:
There is lots of great pitching talent to
consider for this team, but the staff ace is clearly Christy Mathewson
(372-188, 2.12 ERA, .227 OBA, 433 CG in 550 GS, ). He played almost his entire
career with the Giants, but the striking thing is that his career was only 15
full seasons long. That means he averaged over 24 wins a season.
He topped 30 wins four times, and had 25 or more another four times.
His miniscule ERA has to be seen in light of his era (when the average ERA was
already low), but Christy often beat the league average by a full run (such as
in 1909 when he posted his lowest, a 1.14 mark, which compares well to a 2.54
league average). He twice won the pitching triple crown: in 1905 he went 31-9
with a 1.28 ERA and 206 K, while in 1908 managed 37-11 with a 1.43 ERA and 259
K. A control master, he led the league in fewest walks per nine innings seven
times. His 5-5 record in the post-season is unfair, given he posted a 1.06 ERA
in 11 starts (including three shutouts in the 1905 series, the only of the four
his Giants won).
I found it tremendously difficult to
choose who should be the second and third pitcher on this roster, as Carl
Hubbell (253-154, .622 Pct, 2.98 ERA, .243 OBA, 9 AS) and Juan Marichal
(238-140, .630 Pct, 2.84 ERA, .230 OBA, 2281 SO in 3444 IP, 9 AS) are both
superb and have very similar career and peak statistics. In fact,
they are each other's "most similar pitcher" according to Bill James'
Similarity Score system, with a score of 912. King Carl played his entire
career with the Giants, winning 20+ games five times (consecutive). He led the
league in wins three times and ERA three times. Most notably, he won two MVP
awards: in 1933 with a 23-12 record and a 1.66 ERA and again in 1936 with a
26-6 record and a 2.31 ERA. Marichal pitched nearly his entire career for the
Giants, winning 20+ games six times. He led the league in ERA once and wins
twice.
The remaining starting pitchers are tough
choices. As with other long-standing clubs, it is tough to compare pitchers
from the 1800s (with its three-man rotations and 40 win seasons) to modern era
stars. The three old-timers who are candidates are hall-of-famers Mickey
Welch (238-146, .620 Pct, 2.69 ERA), Amos Rusie (233-163, .588 Pct,
2.89 ERA), and Tim Keefe (174-82, .680 Pct, 2.53 ERA). Welch pitched 8+ full
seasons for New York, with his best season being 1885 when he went 44-11 with a
1.66 ERA (compared to a really low league ERA of 2.68). He was always amongst
the league leaders in most pitching categories, but never led the league in
anything significant. Rusie also pitched eight full seasons for New York, and
had his best season in 1894 with a 36-13 record and a 2.78 ERA (compared to a
really high 5.26 league ERA). He won the pitching triple crown that year, and
regularly led the league in strikeouts (though he also led the league in walks
every year from 1890-94). Keefe only pitched five full years for the Giants,
but during those years he led the league in ERA twice, wins twice, and had
seasons of 32-13, 42-20, 35-19, 35-12,
and 28-13.
Soon after these guys there was Joe
McGinnity (151-88, .632 Pct, 2.38 ERA), who joined New York in 1902 and
pitched until 1908. He won 25+ games three times, leading the league each time.
1904 was his best season: 35-8 with a 1.61 ERA. Freddie Fitzsimmons
(170-114, .599 Pct, 3.54 ERA) pitched for the Giants from 1925-37, and though
his numbers aren't phenomenal, he did have four 18+ win seasons and nearly had
a .600 winning percentage. The only recent pitcher to be considered in this
bunch is Gaylord Perry (134-109, .551 Pct, 2.96 ERA, 1606 SO in 2295 IP,
2 AS), who started his long career for the Giants in 60s as a teammate of
Marichal's. He had two 20+ win seasons, and four others with 15+. He was
regularly amongst the league leaders in ERA and SOs, though many of his best
seasons were with other clubs.
In the end, I'll go with Welch, McGinnity, Perry,
Rusie, and Fitzsimmons (roughly in that order). It is very hard to leave Keefe
off, given his .680 winning percentage, but with only five seasons I decided to
go with the longevity of Fitzsimmons. I had to consider numerous others as
well, starting with Hal Schumacher (158-121, 3.36, 2 AS) who pitched his entire
career (1931-46) for the Giants. He started off great in 1933-35 going 19-12,
23-10, and 19-9, but never again managed more than 13 wins. Hooks Wiltse
(136-85, .615 Pct, 2.48) pitched almost his entire career in New York, and was
a teammate of McGinnity's. He had two 20+ win seasons, and a few other good
years. Jeff Tesreau's (115-72, .615 Pct, 2.43) short career (1912-18) was
entirely in New York. He started strong capturing the ERA crown in his
rookie season (1.96) and winning 20+ games the next two years, but didn't last
much longer. Sal Maglie (95-42, .693 Pct, 3.13, 2 AS) had three good years for
the Giants going 18-4, 23-6, and 18-8 from 1950-52 (winning the ERA crown in
1950). Likewise, Rube Marquard (103-76, 2.85) posted seasons of 24-7, 26-11,
and 23-10 in 1911-13. Larry Jansen (120-86, 3.55, 2 AS) had two 20+ win
seasons, and three others with 15+ wins. Johnny Antonelli (108-84, 3.13, 5 AS)
had two 20+ win seasons, led the league in ERA (2.30) in 1954, and was an
all-star five of his six full seasons as a Giant. But in my view, none of these
others could beat out Keefe or Fitzsimmons for the final spot.
Relief Pitching:
I decided to go with eight starting
pitchers only after I considered the relief pitching candidates. Here
too, there are many who are deserving of recognition. In the end, choosing more
than two would have been very difficult, so I decided to just go with the
two recent and dominant closers, Robb
Nen (2.43 ERA, 206 SV, 3 AS) and Rod Beck (2.97 ERA, 199 SV, 3 AS). Nen only pitched five seasons for the Giants, but had between 37 and 45 saves each year – leading the league in 2001 with 45. In
1998 he had 40 SV, 1.52 ERA, with 110 K and only 25 BB in 88.6 IP. In
2000 he was even more dominating: 41 SV, 1.50 ERA, with
92 K and only 19 BB in 66 IP. Beck pitched 6+ years for the Giants immediately before
Nen's tenure began. He had 30+ saves four times, plus 28 in the
strike-shortened 1994 season (a year he won the NL Rolaids Relief Award). His
best year was 1993, when he had 48 SVs, a 2.16 ERA, and 86 K and only 13 BB in
79.3 IP.
Choosing only two relievers means that
Greg Minton (125 SV, 3.23 ERA, 1 AS) and Gary Lavelle (127 SV, 2.82 ERA, 2 AS)
get excluded. Minton pitched eight full seasons for the Giants, and parts of
five others. He had 19 or more saves five consecutive seasons as the Giants
closer from 1980-84. 1982 was clearly his career year: 10-4, 30 SV, 1.83 ERA
over 123 IP. That was good enough for sixth in the Cy Young voting and
8th in the MVP voting. Lavelle was a teammate of Minton's, and was
generally the primary closer in the years Minton wasn't. He had three 20-save
seasons, and three others with 10+. They both pitched nearly twice as many
innings as Beck or Nen, over twice as many seasons. So if you think they had a
greater positive impact on the Giants, then you could go with them instead –-
the tough thing would be trying to mix-and-match and take Nen or Beck with
Minton or Lavelle. If you want all four on the team, then you need to go with
two fewer starters (Fitzsimmons? Rusie? Perry?)
Finally, there were a few others I considered. Frank
Linzy (78 SV, 2.71 ERA) was the bullpen ace during the late 60s and had
double-digit save totals five years in a row. Randy Moffitt (83 SV, 3.68 ERA)
was a quality guy in the Giants pen during Minton and Lavelle's early years in
the mid-seventies, putting together six consecutive 10+ save seasons. And
honorable mention goes to Hoyt Wilhelm (42-25, 41 SV, 2.98 ERA, 1 AS), who
started his Hall-of-Fame career at the age of 28 as a Giant in 1952, pitching
five full seasons there before moving on.
Extra Spot:
Again, not an easy choice, but I'll give the
extra spot to 1B Roger Connor over fellow old-timer SP Tim Keefe. He was
amongst the league leaders in so many categories, with such regularity, I think
he deserves this honor. I also considered Clark, Thompson (Bobby), Van Heltren, Minton,
Lavelle, and others.
Team Captain:
The captain must be Willie Mays, naturally. The
other two starting outfielders, Barry Bonds and Mel Ott, are honorable
mentions, along with Christy Mathewson.
Starting Lineup
Willie Mays OF
Mel Ott OF
Barry Bonds OF
Willie McCovey 1B
Matt Williams 3B
Buck Ewing C
Travis Jackson SS
Larry Doyle 2B
Christy Mathewson
If you like George Davis over Travis Jackson at SS, then you
could lead off with Davis, and move Mays to the three-hole, moving everyone
else down a spot. Ditto if you wanted to start Frisch at 2B over Doyle.
Prospects for Current Players:
What are the prospects of current Giants players making this all-time team? Bonds is already on the roster, and beyond him I don't see other solid hitting candidates. Starting pitcher Jason Schmidt has had two good seasons and two mediocre ones for the Giants so far, but he is 33 already and showing durability problems already. We'll see...
Other Lists
Giants Retired Numbers (players only)
Christy Mathewson (no number), Bill Terry (3), Mel Ott (4), Carl Hubbell (11), Willie Mays (24), Juan Marichal (27), Orlando Cepeda (30), Gaylord Perry (36), Willie McCovey (44)
2003 Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups
Neyer first chooses a starter and backup for only the San Francisco Giants, and then later in his book chooses a starting lineup only for the combined NY and SF franchise. So focusing on just the latter, he chooses Bresnahan as the C and McCovey at 1B, both of which are good selections. He starts Kent at 2B, but then writes "The best of the Giants' old-time second basement was Frankie Frisch, but I'm partial to Larry Doyle, who said "Gee, it's great to be young and a Giant." Like me he goes with Jackson at SS and Williams at 3B. The OF of Mays, Bonds, and Ott is obvious. His starting four are solid: Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, and Fitzsimmons, though he says that Freddie is "pushed here by Hal Schumacher and Joe McGinnity." Nen is the closer.
1985 The
All-Time All-Star Baseball Book by Bart Acocella,
Nick Acocella, and Donald Dewey
These authors split it up and have separate lineups for NY and SF. For NY they start an infield of Terry, Frisch, Lindstrom, and Jackson. This is reasonable: you could either go this way or with Doyle at 2B and Frisch at 3B. Ross Youngs joins Mays and Ott in the OF. As a means of honorable mention, they wrote: "Among the other Giant Hall of Famers not making the first team are Mickey Welch, Tim Keefe, John Montgomery Ward, Buck Ewing, George Kelly, Amos Rusie, Roger Connor, Johnny Mize, Carl Hubbell, Monte Irvin, Rube Marquard and Dave Bancroft."
Then for the SF version, for some reason they went with Cepeda at 1B and list McCovey in the OF. They write: "If you prefer Cepeda in the outfield and McCovey at first, no problem. It would still be up to Mays to catch any fly balls hit to that side." Fuentes, Davenport, and Spier complete the rather unimpressive infield, though they were all reasonable choices in 1985. And the senior Bonds was a good choice to complete the OF. Tom Haller was the best of the lackluster C candidates, while Juan Marichal was the obvious SP.
1995 Baseball
Ratings by Charles S. Faber
The Faber system as applied in 1995 creates two reasonable lineups. For NY he lists the same players as Acocella, et al., did except for George Burns in the OF in place of Youngs. For SF McCovey and Spier again make it, and Robby Thompson and Matt Williams by then had done enough to join them. Haller is again the backstop. Mays and Bonds are in the OF, with Jack Clark joining them this time. The combined rotation is Mathewson, Marichal, Hubbbell, Fitzsimmons, and Schumacher. Pretty good, though I preferred several others over Hal. Lavelle is the top reliever listed.
TheBaseballPage.com (link)
This website (as of May 2006) avoids the tough decisions by selecting four 1B: Connor, McCovey, Terry, and Cepeda. While I find it interesting that they list Connor as the starter, I think it is a mistake. 2B is spot on with Doyle and Kent. Davis is the starting SS, with Ward the backup, meaning they prefer the stronger peak performances over the longevity of Jackson. Far less understandable is how Evans can be chosen over Williams as the starter at 3B. Bonds in LF, Mays in CF, Ott in RF hardly need any backups, and so only one is given: the elder Bonds (plus Cepeda is listed at 1B). Like me, they choose the versatile Ewing and Bresnahan as their catchers.
The five SP are reasonable: Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Keefe, and Perry. I prefer several others to Keefe, including McGinnity and Fitzsimmons who are listed as extra RP on their roster, alnog with Rube Marquard. The two true relievers they include are Rod Beck and Gary Lavelle, which leaves Rob Nen off the team. Their honorable mention includes dozens of players, making the absence of Nen again quite glaring.
1959: Sport magazine, January issue
As part of a running series, Sport magazine reported on all-time all-star teams picked by "big league publicity departments and the writers covering the clubs." In this case, this roster was selected one year after the team was "transplanted from New York to San Francisco." Here is what they had to say:
- First Base: Bill Terry was the last of the National League's .400 hitters and was a brilliant fielder as well as an exceptional hitter. He spent his entire career with the Giants, from 1923 to 1936, and was player manager for his last five seasons.
- Second Base: Frank Frisch, the old Fordham Flash, perhaps is best remembered as a St. Louis Cardinal star, but he played eight seasons for the Giants, from 1919 to 1926, during which he did some of his best hitting and helped the team to four pennants.
- Shortstop: Travis Jackson, "Stonewall" to old Polo Grounds fans, held the position for most of his 14 years with the Giants, from 1923 to 1936. He gets the nod over Dave Bancroft, Dick Bartell and Alvin Dark because he combined powerful hitting with exceptional range in the field and a throwing arm that was the best of its time.
- Third Base: Freddy Lindstrom, who played from 1924 to 1932, gets a close vote over Art Devlin of an earlier era, chiefly because of his fine hitting. In 1930, Freddy hit .379 only to have teammate Terry outdo him with .401.
- Right Field: Mel Ott, the outstanding Giant of them all, played 20 years and set home-run records that still stand. He played from 1926 to 1947, the last six years as player-manager, and was a great fielder and thrower in addition to being one of the league's top all-time hitters.
- Center Field: Willie Mays, a brilliant hitter, fielder, base-runner and inspirational player since he joined the team in 1951, has to be included even in mid-career. He sparked a makeshift team to pennants in 1951 and 1954 and was named the National League's Most Valuable Player in 1954.
- Left Field: Ross Youngs never actually played left field during his career with the Giants, from 1917 to 1926, but he was too good to leave off the team. He was the right-fielder just before Ott and was noted as an aggressive player and a fine hitter. He dropped under .300 only once and his best marks were .355 in 1924 and .351 in 1920.
- Catcher: Roger Bresnahan, the Duke of Tralee, was in a class by himself from 1902 to 1908, when he was both an outfielder and a catcher for the Giants. His best hitting year was 1903, when he hit .350, but it was his remarkable ability behind the plate that stamps Bresnahan as outstanding.
- Righthanded Pitcher: Christy Mathewson is matched only by Grover Cleveland Alexander among all-time National League pitchers. He played for the Giants from 1900 to 1916 and won 20 games or more for 12 straight years. He won 37 games in 1908 and 33 in 1904, his two best years. He won 371 games for the Giants.
- Lefthanded Pitcher: Carl Hubbell, the King of the Screwball, pitched from 1928 to 1943 and won 263 games. He won 20 games or more for five straight seasons, his best mark being a 26-6 record in 1936.
Analysis:
Back in 1958 this is a reasonable roster. Frisch and Lindstrom vs. Doyle and Frisch is a tough call. It is a little odd that they admit to choosing a non-LF for LF, as at that point they might as well just select three OF.
1969 The Sporting News Fan
Poll
The July 5, 1969 issue reports the results of a
fan poll for the long-standing franchises of the day. The results for the Giants are more complicated than for other teams. The fans in San Francisco selected separate all-time teams for the Giants of SF and the Giants of NY, but the fans of the Mets also selected an all-time New York Giants team.
Starting with the SF Giants team in 1969 is drawing on only little over a decade-worth of history, and is comprised of 1B McCovey, 2B Ron Hunt, 3B Jim Davenport, SS Hal Lanier, C Tom Haller, LF Harvey Kuenn, CF Willie Mays, RF Felipe Alou, RHP Juan Marichal, and LHP Johnny Antonelli. Lanier was a very weak hitter, but at that point had played the most at SS. I might have gone with Jose Pagan at SS, and voted for Lanier as a 2B, since at that point Ron Hunt had only played one and a half years for the Giants. Alou is an excellent choice in the outfield, but Kuenn only had four mediocre seasons as a Giant, and choosing him leaves Cepeda out of the lineup. And only three of Antonelli's seasons were after the move west, so surely Mike McCormick's resume was stronger for the LHP spot.
The SF fans chose the following for the NY Giants lineup: 1B Bill Terry, 2B Frankie Frisch, , 3B Fred Lindstrom, SS Alvin Dark, C Wes Westrum, LF Bobby Thompson, CF Willie Mays, RF Mel Ott, RHP Christy Mathewson, and LHP Carl Hubbell. I must assume the fans in 1969 simply failed to remember older plays like Jackson and Davis, and hence made the mistake of selecting Dark as the SS. And perhaps Ewing and Bresnahan were ignored for that reason and also because they played positions beyond C. The other choices are all good ones.
The Mets fans chose mostly the same as the SF fans for the NY Giants lineup. They more sensibly chose Jackson at SS and Bresnahan at C. They also swapped Youngs in for Thompson in LF, which is at least debatable.
1990: The Baseball Research Journal
In an interesting article, Robert C. Berlo used Thorn and
Palmer's TPR (Total Player Rating) system to choose all-time teams.
He selected players based on their best 800 consecutive games for
the franchise, with a minimum of five years played. His results:
1B Willie McCovey 23.7
2B Frankie Frisch 17.0
SS George Davis 26.9
3B Art Devlin 14.2
RF Mel Ott 24.1
CF Willie Mays 35.5
LF Bobby Bonds 18.0
C Buck Ewing 22.4
SP Christy Mathewson 27.7
SP Carl Hubbell 25.6
SP Juan Marichal 24.9
SP Amos Rusie 23.9
RP Frank Linzy 7.1
Analysis:
Interesting results, and no real suprises. Since this approach favors peak performance over longevity I'd expect to see Davis over Jackson at SS. I'm a little surprised that Devlin beat out Lindstrom for 3B. And seeing Bonds listed as LF makes me wonder if this system discounted Cepeda's time as split between OF and 1B. The starting staff is dead on, and seeing Linzy as the RP instead of Minton or Lavelle is a close call.
1981 Fan Poll as reported in The Giants Encyclopedia by Tom Schott and Nick Peters, 1999
At the end of the 1981 season fans selected the following all-time team for the first 25 years of the San Fran Giants: 1B Willie McCovey, 2B Tito Fuentes, SS Johnnie LeMaster, 3B Jim Davenport, C Tom Haller, LF Gary Matthews, CF Willie Mays, RF Jack Clark, "Utility" Orlando Cepeda, RHP Juan Marichal, LHP Vida Blue, RHRP Stu Miller, and LHRP Al Holland.
Perhaps the pain of the 1981 strike rattled some fans brains, because I don't understand how they could vote for LeMaster as the SS over three-time all-star Chris Spier. Voting for Clark over Bonds for RF is less of a problem, but still a mistake I think. Mathews is someone I didn't look much at, but through 1981 he is a sensible selection for LF -- given that Cepeda is on the roster as 1B/OF "utility" player. Fans in 1981 likely had Vida Blue on their minds, but he was only 54-40 for them over four seasons, whereas southpaw Mike McCormick had been 104-89, and had a 22-10 season as part of that. Minton vs. Miller for the RHRP spot is a tough call in 1981, but Holland over Lavelle? No way. Holland had just finished his second full season for them, and while he only had 7 saves in each, he did have fine ERAs of 1.75 and 2.41. But Lavalle also had many fine ERA seasons and by then had 87 saves.
1999 Fan Poll as reported in The Giants Encyclopedia by Tom Schott and Nick Peters, 1999
18 years later fans from the Bay area selected another all-time SF Giants team. They wisened up and chose Spier at SS this time. By then Robby Thompson and Matt Williams had done enough to replace Fuentes and Davenport. And the outfield now not only had Barry Bonds in LF, but sensibly had his dad in RF. Cepeda again cracks the card as "Utility" man. They wisely chose McCormick as LHP, and as the single reliever went with Rod Beck.
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